John L. Augustine

John L. Augustine

Biographical Synopsis of Interviewee: John L. Agustine was born in El Paso, Texas, on August 29, 1914; his father worked in the mines of Lordsburg, New Mexico; he received a degree in agriculture from New Mexico State University and taught for a brief time; from there, he went on to become an assistant agent for Doña Ana County, where he served as a liaison for the bracero program.


Summary of Interview: Mr. Augustine’s first working experience was teaching vocational agriculture in the Farmington Public School System; from there, he went on to become an assistant agent for Doña Ana County under Mr. Lee Gould; upon Mr. Gould’s retirement, Mr. Augustine served as county agent for about ten years; these ten years roughly coincide with the first decade of the bracero program; as an acting liaison for the bracero program, it was his job to ensure that things ran smoothly; he would report the number of necessary workers the farmers needed to the contracting agency; in addition, he intervened and settled disputes between farmers and braceros, and he also required farmers to provide adequate housing according to the program standards; he also recalls the specific harvest seasons braceros were hired and their corresponding duties; to the best of his recollection, there were never any major problems with the program; the use of the braceros provided a symbiotic relationship in which the needs of both the braceros and the farmers were met.

Morgan, Beth

Augustine, John L.

2003-04-28

Doña Ana County Farm Bureau

Cristóbal Borges

Institute of Oral History, The University of Texas at El Paso

eng

John L. Augustine

Morgan, Beth

Cristóbal A. Borges

Institute of Oral History, The University of Texas at El Paso

No

Mini Disc

28:14

24 bit
96 k

Name of Interviewee: John L. Augustine
Date of Interview: April 28, 2003
Name of Interviewer: Beth Morgan


This is Beth Morgan and it is April 28, 2003 and I visiting with Mr. John L. Augustine at home in Las Cruces, New Mexico. He is a former Dona Ana county agent for the Cooperative Extension Service. This interview is for the Bracero Oral History Project.


BM: May I ask, when and where you were born, Mr. Augustine?

JA: Where was I born?

BM: Um-hm.

JA: In El Paso, Texas.

BM: When was that?

JA: In El Paso, Texas, in 1914.

BM: When is your birthday?

JA: August 29, 1914.

BM: Did you grow up in El Paso?

JA: No. My mother and father lived in Lordsburg, New Mexico. He was a mining engineer there, and he had a little mine out, close to the 85 mine. My mother went to El Paso to have me, because there were no facilities in Lordsburg at that time.

BM: You grew up in Lordsburg?

JA: That’s right.

BM: Is that where you graduated from high school?

JA: No. I went to high school two years in Lordsburg and then attended the New Mexico Military Institute for four years. Two years of high school and two years of junior college. In 1935, I came down to New Mexico State University. I took agriculture and attended the university here until I graduated.

BM: You got a bachelor’s degree—

JA: In agriculture.

BM: I believe you said your first position was with the Cooperative Extension Services.

JA: My first position was teaching vocational agriculture in Farmington, New Mexico, for a year.

BM: Was that with a public school then?

JA: Yes, ma’am. Then I came from there, got employed by the New Mexico [Cooperative] Extension Service, and became assistant county agent here in Las Cruces, under County Agent Lee Gould. When he retired, I became county agent.

BM: What year was that?

JA: I’ve been trying to think, but I think it was sometime in the early forties.

BM: That would have been during the time that the Bracero Project was in effect?

JA: Yes, ma’am.

BM: Can you tell me a little about your training for the position of county agent?

JA: You just needed a degree in agriculture, and that is what started you out. The purpose of the [Cooperative] Extension Service is to bring information on what is going on at the university in the Agriculture Department out to the farmers and ranchers…experiment work, mostly.

BM: How many years did you work for the [Cooperative] Extension Service?

JA: I think it was about ten years.

BM: Then you went on to something else?

JA: I became the director of the New Mexico Farm and Livestock Bureau, Executive Vice President of the New Mexico Farm and Livestock Bureau.

BM: Do you speak Spanish?

JA: Just pick-up terms. I took Spanish in high school and then in college. I know the basics of it, but I can’t speak it.

BM: Can you describe for me what your role was in the Bracero Program as a county agent?

JA: Mostly, I would take orders from the farmers for the numbers of people that they needed to help them do farm work. By and large, as I remember this, it was mostly to pick cotton that the Bracero Program was in effect in Doña Ana County.

BM: Then what did you do with those orders?

JA: There was another organization that handled the braceros. [The organization] went down, recruited them, brought them into the country from Mexico, and made them available to go on the farms.

BM: Would that have been the Doña Ana County Farm and Livestock Bureau?

JA: I don’t remember. I don’t think it was the farm bureau, but it could have been.

BM: I think it was at some time. It may not always have been. You took orders for how many workers the farmers needed?

JA: Yes, ma’am. If a certain farmer needed fifteen or twenty or whatever number, why then we would get them. [We would] go to the organization that had brought them in and made them available and get them to take them to the farm.

BM: Were there any other responsibilities that you had that related to the Bracero Program?

JA: Only to try to make it as available and work as good as possible. The men had to be available to bring them over here and make them available to go to the farm.

BM: What years did you work with the braceros or with that program?

JA: I can’t give you the exact years. (laughs) Like I said, I’m getting pretty old, and I can’t remember exact dates anymore, during the time that I was county agent.

BM: Maybe 1942 to 1952, something like that?

JA: Yeah, something like that.

BM: Your job assignment then was here in Doña Ana County?

JA: That’s right.

BM: Did you ever have to go out to the farms as a result of your—

JA: If there became disagreements or some farmer was accused of not doing the right thing with the men, why, I would try to settle that and be sure that those things didn’t happen.

BM: You would kind of work with the farmers and the braceros?

JA: That’s right, to see that they were treated properly, paid, and that they did their job. Between an employer and workers, there sometimes develops disagreements and things like that. I would try to help straighten those things out.

BM: Do you remember any of those in particular?

JA: No, ma’am, I don’t. They happened as they would happen in any program. My job was to try to make this program successful and to work to get our agriculture products picked, like the cotton picked and out of the farm.

BM: Did you ever have any reason to travel down to the recruiting station? I think it was in Eagle Pass, Texas.

JA: No, ma’am, I never did.

BM: Did you ever have to go anywhere else to do your job as administrator of that program?

JA: No, ma’am. Mostly, I was right here in the county working to try to get the braceros to the farmers and to see that they did their job of doing the agriculture work.
BM: Did you have any responsibilities for checking the qualifications of the braceros or anything like that?

JA: No, ma’am. That was the people that brought them in.

BM: Did you ever have any interaction with the Mexican government as a result of your position?

JA: No. All I can say is that these braceros, most of them, were tremendous workers and real good people. They didn’t cause any trouble. [They] wanted to do the job and make the money that came with the job. Because it was good pay for them to come over here and get paid.

BM: Maybe you could talk a little bit about why it was necessary to bring people in from Mexico to do that work.

JA: In this country that was the time of labor shortages. I think the war brought it on. There had to be some agriculture work done, and there just weren’t any local people available.

BM: Were there any farmers that stood out in terms of the number of braceros that they used or their treatment, whether good or bad, of their laborers?

JA: As [with] any program, there were farmers who didn’t do exactly the right thing with these men. We would try to straighten that out and bring about a proper treatment of our braceros. There weren’t many cases of that, but there’s always something, somebody, that does something that isn’t just right. We had some braceros that were not good workers, and we had to straighten that out and send them back or get them to go to work.

BM: On a day-to-day basis, what exactly were your responsibilities within the program? What would you do that had to do with that program?

JA: Just take orders from farmers, get them to the people that had the braceros, and then help to get them out on the farm. That was about it.

BM: Would that be kind of a seasonal thing?

JA: A what?

BM: Seasonal—

JA: Yeah. It was in the cotton-picking season when we needed them the worst.

BM: Toward the end of the summer, early fall, would you have a lot of orders?

JA: Early fall, yeah.

BM: During the wintertime, did you have any orders for braceros?

JA: This picking season went on until finally all the cotton was picked.

BM: When was that usually? When did that stop?

JA: Usually around the first of the year.

BM: During the springtime, was there any demand for braceros?

JA: Yes, ma’am. Preparing the land or the crops needed some handwork or human work, to get things prepared.

BM: Like weeding or something like that?

JA: Yeah.

BM: Was it nearly always hand labor that they were hired for?

JA: That’s right.

BM: Did any of them, to your knowledge, drive tractors and heavy equipment like that?

JA: If the farmer needed somebody to, and they were available, they could do it.

BM: I see. (clock chiming) Would you happen to remember how many braceros might be hired by farmers in the county over the course of the year?

JA: You mean the total number or for each farm?

BM: Either one or both.

JA: I don’t remember, but there were several thousand braceros in [the county] at one time.

BM: Would you say that would be at the peak of cotton harvest?

JA: Yes, ma’am. There was other growing of vegetables that required a lot of hand labor, just harvesting it, keeping the land clean, getting the vegetables grown, and then harvested.

BM: That was things like onions?

JA: Onions, well, onions were our main crop here all right.

BM: At that time for vegetables?

JA: Yeah.

BM: What about chile?

JA: Chile? That required picking, like cotton, and it required a lot of hand labor. Chile and cotton were the big picking crops.

BM: How about lettuce?

JA: Lettuce had to be harvested by hand, too. So we had all of those things.

BM: What about alfalfa? Did they have any—

JA: Well, the only thing you can load the hay onto a truck or something like that. They could be used, but that didn’t require a great number.

BM: They may have been employed within the county year-round, but for different purposes?

JA: That’s right.

BM: To your knowledge, did the braceros that worked at one farm return to that same place the next year?

JA: If they were satisfied. In most cases, the farmers and the braceros got along good.

BM: Did you have any responsibility for setting that up?

JA: I would help them to get back to the same farm. If the farmer wanted the same ones, I would help him to get them.

BM: How did you manage that? I mean did you have to correspond with them in Mexico or what?

JA: No. They had the people that had—we had contact together.

BM: That would have been with the organization that actually—

JA: Yeah, that’s right.

BM: Let’s see here. Did you require any proof of the bracero’s state of health?

JA: As a whole, their health was very good. I mean they weren’t sickly or anything like that. There were always a few that have something or some kind of disease or something. As a whole, we didn’t have much of that.

BM: Did you have any responsibility for assuring that they were fit to work or was that the other organization?

JA: That was the other organization.

BM: Did you have to keep track of what kind of housing the braceros were put in?

JA: No, but we all wanted them to have adequate, clean housing. As a whole, that was developed over the time. There wasn’t high-class housing, but it was adequate, clean places to live.

BM: By adequate, would that include running water and—

JA: Running water, something to cook with, that sort of thing, and a place to sleep.

BM: Did that necessarily include indoor toilets or not?

JA: In most cases, there were no indoor toilets.

BM: I see, okay. What was the Cooperative Extension Service’s responsibility for ensuring that that housing was adequate?

JA: Well if it turned out not to be, we would work with the farmer to get him to fix it, to take care of the situation.

BM: That was mostly just a matter of persuading them to do it?

JA: That’s right, because in the final analysis, it could be brought out that they could lose these braceros if they didn’t do the right thing.

BM: Did they have to do that at their own expense?

JA: Yes.

BM: Did you handle any of the work contracts for the braceros?

JA: Only to furnish the forms and that sort of thing.

BM: Did you do most of your work on the phone or did you go to the farms to find out how many braceros people needed?

JA: Well, both ways. They would come to me, the farmers would, and request that we get them so many or I was out in the farming community, too.

BM: Half of one and six dozen—

JA: Yeah.

BM: (laughs) I mean six of one and half a dozen of the other. Did you have any oversight of the braceros at the time their contracts were over?

JA: You mean what they would do then?

BM: Right.

JA: They were supposed to be taken back to Mexico.

BM: But that was by the other agency?

JA: Yeah.

BM: Did the Cooperative Extension Service have any requirements for closing out the books on a particular bracero or anything like that?

JA: No, we didn’t do much of that.

BM: You’re mostly kind of like a go-between?

JA: That’s right.

BM: In your opinion, what affect did the Bracero Program have on undocumented workers coming into the county?

JA: What do you mean by undocumented? I thought they were undocumented.

BM: The braceros were people who were legally sanctioned by both the U.S. government and the Mexican government. I’m talking about people—

JA: The ones who came across the border on their own?

BM: Right.

JA: Well probably they had some places they had been working and came back. As a whole, I think the Bracero Program was what was relied on during that time.

BM: Do you think that the fact that the Bracero Program was in effect reduced the number of illegals crossing?

JA: Oh, yes.

BM: What about relations between Doña Ana County and the Mexican government? Do you think that was pretty good during that time?

JA: We didn’t have any argument that I remember, because the braceros were needed, and the braceros needed the jobs . Our job was to get them together and get them in here to work.

BM: Did you have any complaints about discrimination against the braceros by any of the local farmers?

JA: It wasn’t anything big.

BM: If those kinds of complaints arose, then did you have some responsibility for working those out, too?

JA: We would try to get together and get 'em straightened out.

BM: To your knowledge, did any of the braceros end up working with crews that included people who had crossed illegally?

JA: Oh, I don’t think we had a problem with that.

BM: That was not a problem?

JA: Unh-uh.

BM: Did you ever have to arbitrate if the farmers had problems with braceros who were say, having a little bit too much fun on Saturday nights? (laughs)
JA: Yeah. Once again, I would get into those things if asked or if I saw that I needed to do it to straighten out something. We did pretty good at it. Nothing, fighting or anything like that, just a matter of trying to get people to do the right thing. If the braceros wouldn’t do the right thing, they would have to go back.

BM: Do you remember any specific incidents?

JA: No, ma’am, but I know there were some.

BM: I understand that some of the farmers may have received workers who did cross illegally. I wanted to know if there was any awareness, on your part, of such farmers, and if you had any responsibility for trying to make them legal by bringing them into the Bracero Program?

JA: No, ma’am. I didn’t get mixed up in it.

BM: To your knowledge, was there any labor unrest among the braceros in this county?

JA: Well, there are always dissatisfied workers that want more or do less, but it wasn’t a big problem. We never had a big problem with that.

BM: How about criminal behavior?

JA: Well, once in a while, there were those, too. The sheriff’s department took care of most of those.

BM: What affect did the Bracero Program have on the productivity of Doña Ana County farms?

JA: If we hadn’t had them, there would be a lot of farms that wouldn’t have been able to harvest their crops. That would have been real bad financially for our farm people.

BM: What about the ranchers? Were there any Doña Ana County ranchers that used braceros?

JA: That was not a problem with us that I remember.

BM: The ranchers were not requiring braceros?

JA: No. The big requirement was with the cotton farmers and the vegetable farmers.

BM: Could you describe for me your personal opinion of the Bracero Program as a whole?

JA: I think it was a tremendous program at the time it was in effect. [It was] something that we really needed in this county and in this area. It did a great deal of good and kept many of our farmers in business by harvesting their crops. By and large, the big majority of the braceros were good workers and good people.
BM: What would you say were the advantages of the program?

JA: Well, they were here to work, to take care harvesting our crops, and the farmers needed them. If they hadn’t had them, I don’t know what we would have done.

BM: What about disadvantages of the program?

JA: I can’t think of any. It didn’t hurt anybody in this country or any of our workers that were here, the few that were here. There were no disadvantages that I know of.

BM: Do you think it would be a good idea to revive the Bracero Program?

JA: Only if it didn’t displace American workers.

BM: It seems like there’s not a lot of Americans that want to do farm labor at this point in time anyway.

JA: No. If it would help our farmers to carry on and feed the people in the United States, feed and clothe them, then it would be good to have bracero labor.

BM: Do you think that there could be any benefits to the farmers in terms of enabling them to stay in business?

JA: Well, you have to harvest these crops. Today, we have many mechanical ways of harvesting, but we still need hand labor in many cases. If there is a need, I think it would be a good thing to revive it in a way that wouldn’t hurt American workers.

BM: Is there anything that stands out in your mind about the time that you were working with the Bracero Program that you would like to talk about?

JA: No, ma’am. Well, it was just something to do. It was a program that was needed and necessary, and we did it. That was the thing that was done.

BM: As I said, this questionnaire, since it was not written specifically for county agents, I think I may have done about what I can do with it.

JA: Yeah. I don’t know what else we can talk about. I would still like to say that it was a good program, well carried out, and it was a real benefit to the farmers in this county. It was a benefit to the braceros, because they were able to work, make money, and go back to Mexico and have the resources to buy and do their thing. (clock chiming)

BM: Do you think it had an affect on immigration?

JA: It might have been some of them wanted to come over, but as a whole, they were Mexican citizens and were here to do a job.

BM: The majority of them went home?

JA: Yes, ma’am.

BM: Do you know of any personally who decided to stay?

JA: Uh-uh.

BM: I guess that is all the questions I have for you, sir.

JA: Well, I think it was nice that you are doing this. It was a good program and deserves to be part of the good things that happened in the past.

BM: Well, thank you so much. I’m going to turn this off now.




End of interview

Morgan, Beth

Augustine, John L.

Las Cruces, New Mexico

Augustine_ELP002